Making "Job Moves"

Links We Mention

Job Moves: 9 Steps for Making Progress in Your Career

Career and Technical Education for All by Michael B. Horn and Daniel Curtis, Education Next

Chapters

0:00 - Intro
02:40 - Job Moves in a Nutshell
04:02 - How Job Moves Applies to Colleges
07:17 - Balancing Skills Development Against Credentials
09:26 - Helping Students Make More Informed Choices
16:16 - Next Steps for Higher Ed
22:43 - Michael's Process for Writing a Book 
26:55 - Making the Time to Write 
29:53 - Planner or Plunger?
32:36 - Working with a Publisher
35:49 - The Hard Part that No One Talks About 
38:32 - Where to Find More on Job Moves

Transcript

Jeff Selingo:

Greetings from my home studio of Washington, D.C. where this moment in between a change of administrations is always full of a lot of job moves. And that also happens to be the title of Michael Horn's new book with his co authors Ethan Bernstein and Bob Moesta. Today we'll be talking about the book in the context of higher ed, but we'll also be talking about it in terms of something that our readers ask us about a lot. And that is what's it like to write a book on this episode of Future U.

Sponsor:

This episode of Future U is sponsored by the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, working to eliminate race, ethnicity and income as predictors of student educational success. This episode of Future U is sponsored by Ascendium Education Group, a non profit organization committed to helping learners from low income backgrounds reach their education and career goals. For more information, visit ascendiumphilanthropy.org. For affordable degrees in education, healthcare, nursing, business or leadership, choose American College of Education. ACE hasn't raised tuition since 2016, and 86% of students graduate debt free. For programs designed for today's working professionals, visit ace.edu. Subscribe to Future U wherever you get your podcasts. And if you enjoy the show, send it along to a friend so others can discover the conversations we're having about higher education.

Michael Horn:

I'm Michael Horn.

Jeff Selingo:

And I'm Jeff Selingo. Welcome to Future U, where I'm excited to talk about my co host's new book, Job Moves: 9 Steps for Making progress in your career. You know, Michael, as I always tell you, I don't know if we've been doing this show for too long or you're just a prolific writer, but in the time we've been together, it seems like you've written more books than John Grisham.

Michael Horn:

That I don't think I'd heard before, Jeff. But you know, as you know, a few of them came together because of the pandemic and, and this one has sort of been a labor of love over many years, shall we say?

Jeff Selingo:

Well, okay, so quickly, maybe quickly for our listeners here. What's the elevator pitch for this book? What is it about? And I think we should note here to give a shout out again to your two co authors, Ethan Bernstein and Bob Moesta.

Job Moves in a Nutshell

Michael Horn:

Yeah, yeah, you bet. So the book basically picks up where a lot of people are in their careers, which is 1 billion people worldwide switch jobs every year and, and increasingly their sense of what progress looks like is different from how employers think about career progression or the career ladder or things like that. And so this huge mismatch right. In the job market. And so this is basically a what color's your parachute for the modern age, if you will. And it makes the big claim that people are hiring their next job just as much as employers are hiring you. So we did a research on over a thousand individuals around why they actually switched jobs and came up with this root cause analysis of the various forces that come together that cause them to switch. And then it was super fun, Jeff. We got to build a nine step process with several cohorts of individuals to help them actually make those switches more effectively and not become like the millions of people during the Great Resignation who would quit their job, wind up in something new, and then regret it, which we know from Gallup and a whole bunch of surveys was actually quite a significant number. So we think we have something, Jeff, that is going to help a lot of people navigate their, their pathways between jobs and then make progress in their careers and lives.

How Job Moves Applies to Colleges 

Jeff Selingo:

Yeah, so I love this turn of phrase. Right. You're hiring your next job rather than being hired for it. Right. It makes it a much more assertive, progressive. You're, you're taking action rather than letting the action be taken for you. Kind of curious about how this shift apply to colleges as they prepare students for their careers. Again, because I think students think the same thing. Well, I'm just going out on the job market. I'm going to get hired rather than thinking about, even for themselves, about hiring your next job.

Michael Horn:

Yeah, it's a huge mindset shift. Right. It creates agency and ownership in the life of the individual. And I think to your point, we just aren't giving students any information about how the job market actually works today. And so the basic idea is to help individuals understand what drives your energy, what are the capabilities you want to be developing and how does that manifest itself in the various jobs you could have and create prototypes of them. And then you intentionally choose the prototype you want and then basically go find it in the job market, learn how to pitch yourself and all sorts of things. So there's like a whole set of skills. I would argue that we can help students build around understanding themselves better, understanding what their priorities are, understanding how to make trade offs, what are the things that are going to suck in your first, second, third job, but allow you to make progress on all these other dimensions. And then the big one that I'll name, Jeff, just because I see it over and over again with my own students at, at Harvard that I teach, is they think that there's all these online job postings, and I'm just supposed to send my resume out to all these things and I'll magically get a job. And what they don't realize is before AI, 70% or so of jobs were filled by someone you knew. So with your network, my own belief and the research suggests, you know, before employers had AI filtering out resumes, right. That didn't match the job description. Now employees, or would be employees, are using AI to improve their resumes and apply for tons of jobs. So you basically have AI applying to AI. And I don't think employers trust what they're seeing, so they're actually reverting more to trusted people coming through the network. And the reason I say that is I just think colleges and universities need to do a much better job of teaching people the importance of network and how to actually build and then use it. Because it's not just enough to go to a party and meet people, but how do you actually ask for help and pitch yourself?

Jeff Selingo:

Well, I think this goes back to a question I wanted to ask you about, like, the capabilities of students. Right. Because they also think, I believe, that once they get that bachelor's degree, it's that ticket to a job. And there's all these other skill sets that you need, including, by the way, the ability to network. And I think as colleges in particular face growing scrutiny about the value of the degrees, how can they think more about balancing skills development against credentials? Again, it's not just about getting that credential. It's also about skills. Right?

Balancing Skills Development Against Credentials

Michael Horn:

Yeah. And you've written about this, right, about how people with a degree plus, like a very clear micro credential that signifies a set of skills that you mastered are much better off in the job market than someone with just one or the other, frankly. And so it's the combination of both that I think is so powerful. In the book, we introduced this idea from the Harvard professor Boris Groysberg about the career balance sheet or the personal balance sheet. And what we basically say is that everyone has assets and liabilities. Assets are not strengths. They're not sort of like, you know, permanent qualities or traits that make you who you are. Instead, what they are are resources, in effect, that you've acquired at a cost that are going to confer future economic value. And so they are skills, but they are also degrees. And like all assets, they have a shelf life. They depreciate over time. Right. Like buildings, you know, cash, things like that. And so in this case, as you think about your capabilities or your assets. And then the liabilities are what's the effort and time and money that you're going to put out to obtain those over time? I guess I would say the big thing is you have to have a balanced view of both. Right.And you made the point in an earlier podcast. It's your skill sets that you developed. It's the degrees you've earned, it's the network that you've built, and what's the shelf life of each of those things. I think degrees, once you get into the job market, have pretty good shelf lives, and I think that'll actually continue to be the case. Skills are depreciating much faster than ever before. So what's your refresh rate on that? And frankly, networks go stale over time as well if you don't continue to make a concerted effort to keep those up to date as well. And all of those things, understanding where are you going? Not just where are you, you know, where are you at this present moment? A static picture of those evolving assets, I think is incredibly important as you're managing your education and career.

Helping Students Make More Informed Choices

Jeff Selingo:

So I want to talk about the timing here, because there were a couple of things that were interesting in your book to me. One was, you know, how often people regret job moves that are made hastily and this idea that you should learn and how the book emphasizes learning before switching jobs. And I think both of those could be applied to how we think about higher education. Right. So first, I think that students hastily decide what to major. Major in and. And as seniors hastily decide on, you know, taking whatever job they could get. Right. So they are. They move quickly, too. And by the way, I would argue that when you're 20, you have all the time in the world, right? So take it. And then this idea of learning, right. Because there seems to be parallels here, particularly. I know you talk a lot to high school students and counselors and things like that. You know, I, I see a lot of parallels to how students are choosing their academic major. Right. Without really learning anything about it. They go to college, they pick this major, they take all these classes, then they get out, they get a job somewhat hastily, and. And then they're in a job and they're like, oh, this sucks. Right. So could we talk a little bit about how some of the theories in the book about both haste, you know, hastily switching jobs and learning more about jobs before you actually take them, before switching jobs can be applied in the context of higher education? What can colleges and universities do around these theories, do you think, to Help students on these fronts.

Michael Horn:

Yeah, 100%. And let's say it this way, the learn before switching is basically how do you prototype what a job might be like before you actually take it. And so there's a whole set of steps you can take to really low cost, low, you know, risk to you. Prototype experiences before you jump into them. And I'm going to lie on the couch now here. You're my therapist, Jeff. If I could redo Choosing College, one of the things I would redo in that book is give a lot of this language of how you prototype a job a lot more depth, I think on prototyping a college or a major before someone jumped into it, frankly as well. What I would say for the purposes of this is you're absolutely right, number one, you need to prototype these things. And the way, you know, I'd recommend people do it is get a very clear idea not of what the major is called or sort of the, you know, sexiness of it or the in vogueness or your parents are saying, you know, the joke in my religion and culture, right. Is like marry a doctor, you know, things like that, right. But instead really focus on what you're going to do in that major. What are the things you're actually going to do on a day to day basis in your classes and do they line up with the things that really give you energy and the capabilities that you really enjoy and want to lean more into? Right. And so the way you can get clues about that is twofold about yourself. Look at your past classes in high school and you know, early experiences in college. Literally list when were the times that you were in flow in those classes, when were you just like, oh my God, this sucks and I can't wait to be done with this sort of thing. Then literally look at the skill sets that you've built up and think about which are the ones that are really exciting to you and you want to lean into more versus the ones that you don't. Once you understand that on what I would call as the demand side, like the what you want, then you start looking at the different possibilities, programs, majors and so forth, and you actually talk to people in them to say, do you get opportunities to do these things? Do you, you know, does it have opportunities where you do these things that I hate? How much does that happen? Right? And so you really start to get a feel for not, gee, electrical engineering is going to have a big payoff, but do the things I do as an electrical engineering major and then the careers, ideally that I would go into with that degree. Are they actually the sorts of things that line up with what, you know, really float my boat in essence, right. What I like doing and what I'm good at doing, which, you know, there's a lot of research, that capabilities and what gives you energy, those are interdependent factors. Right. They're not separable, even though we try to do so in the book. But the, but the idea is really to understand, okay, if this is what I want, how does the supply side, the list of majors, programs, colleges, jobs, actually line up with that? And where does it not line up? And what am I willing to say? Okay, I'll go back to the doctor analogy for a moment. I'm willing to do all the hard work of organic chemistry because all the other things are worthwhile. But as you know, Jeff, tons of people have entered college forever, you know, intending to be pre med and then they hit organic chemistry and 75% of them don't make it through that screen. So how would you know that in advance? There are ways you can prototype that by lining it up with what gives you energy and what you're good at doing.

Jeff Selingo:

Yeah, and I like this idea of prototyping jobs because it also I think leans into this idea of job shadowing, of co-ops or internships. Like the more that students see these things in college, even high school, I would argue the better off that they're going to be in the, in the long term.

Michael Horn:

Let's stay with that because to me then this is what colleges need to be doing. Right. Is giving a lot more prototyping opportunities. We obviously give a very shorthand way of doing the interview, but the best experiences are on the job really working. Right. So it should be micro internships, projects and classes, work based learning that include co ops, internships, externships, apprenticeships, all those things ought to be on the menu, of course of study in college. I agree. High school. I just penned a piece with Danny Curtis, our producer, "Career Technical Education for All." I believe should be the new high school movement. Um, and I think that exposure should start as early as middle school as well, just to get a deeper knowledge base. Not that you're going to choose the path as a middle school or high school student, but more so that it's less opaque to you and you just know what's out there and can start to build the background knowledge around how what you like doing lines up with different pathways and how you can mix and match them. As frankly, the job market changes pretty rapidly. Right. Now, yeah. 

Next Steps for Higher Ed

Jeff Selingo:

And it also integrates them into the undergraduate experience. So it's not seen as a side hustle, but a main hustle in many ways. So one last question before we go to break here, Michael. Looking ahead five to 10 years, what changes do you think higher ed needs to make to better serve both traditional students, but also adult learners and even alums, because this is going to happen more so than ever before, navigate these career transitions? 

Michael Horn:

Yeah. So for traditional students, I think we've just touched on it a lot. They need a lot more work based experiences embedded in the programs themselves. A lot more low impact ways to try before you dive into the major, frankly, to see what those are going to be and really find your tribe, if you will. And then I would argue intentionally building, frankly, the process we sketch out in the book into the curriculum and career services itself so that students are constantly thinking about what drives their energy, prototyping, reflecting on that experience, and then when they find something, learning how to pitch themselves out into the job market so that they actually get that job. For adult learners, I think it's much the same. The difference being as the college, you have to know maybe that adult has already gone through that experience on their end and they've identified you as that stepping stone that they need to get into that next job or to switch careers or whatever it might be to build up their career balance sheet so that they're ready for that next job that they think that they want. And I think your job there is one make sure upon entrance that students know why they're coming. One of my beliefs is that we've sort of made certain parts of the world a little too friction free. Like, you know, Jeff, you talk all the time about how friction filled the college experiences and how difficult it can be for students. The flip side of it is we might introduce a little bit more friction for open enrollment programs that serve adult learners. Just to make sure, are you really coming here for the right reasons and did you do that work up front which is going to increase the odds of your success and finding a good job on the other end? And then the last piece I think is if you understand why people are moving through the job market and upskilling and reskilling to get that next job that does not follow a linear pathway. That's been another big theme, I think of Future U this year is linear pathways in K12, higher ed and the job market are all breaking down. How do you build the right sized programs that help people make progress in their careers and lives? At a much faster clip than perhaps we've understood because people change jobs every four years on average. The younger generation is even faster than that. And that's the one irony is like I agree with you, the 20 year old should slow down. But I get it why they're running so fast because they're constantly being told your skill set is depreciating faster than ever before. And so of course they feel like they have to rush and move and be something right away. How do we fit into that reality of what they're hearing so that they can make the progress? And maybe it's less the 4 and 44 years 40 year career and much more the everyday before you're coming back to us to upskill and reskill.

Jeff Selingo:

Yeah, well Michael, I'm going to ask this again later on, but how can people get the book?

Michael Horn:

JobMoves.com is the website and there's a little link there about ordering and it gives you all the possibilities from Amazon to bulk sales to Barnes and Noble to your local book sellers wherever you buy your books.

Jeff Selingo:

Okay, well we're going to take a quick break here, but when we come back we're going to talk about the process of writing this book with Michael and we'll be right back on Future U.

Jeff Selingo: 

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Michael Horn:

This episode of Future U is sponsored by Ascendium Education Group, a non profit organization committed to helping learners from low income backgrounds reach their education and career goals. Ascendium believes that system level change and a student centric approach are important for our nation's efforts to boost post secondary education and workforce training opportunities. That's why their philanthropy aims to remove systemic barriers faced by these learners, specifically first generation students, incarcerated adults, veterans, students of color, adult learners and rural community members. For more information, visit ascendiumphilanthropy.org.

Jeff Selingo:

This episode is being brought to you by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Today's college students are more than just students. They are workers, parents and caregivers and neighbors. And colleges and universities need to change to meet their changing needs. Learn more about the Foundation's efforts to transform institutions to be more student centered at usprogram.gatesfoundation.org. So welcome back to Future U where I'm putting my co host on the spot here, Michael Horn, who is one of the authors of Job Moves: 9 Steps for Making progress in your career. We just talked, Michael, about the content of the book, but I'm kind of interested, you know, as another author myself. And you know, we also get a lot of questions. I know I do.

Michael's Process for Writing a Book

Jeff Selingo:

I know you do. About what is it like to write a book. I'm going to write a book. Oh, it can't be that hard to write a book. You know, all those questions we get either by email or when we're out at conferences and so forth. So I would like to dig in the second half of the show here to talk a little bit about your process for writing. Maybe I could learn a few things because I will tell you, this last book I wrote was incredibly hard to get done. So I'm always curious about how other authors do things.

Jeff Selingo:

And I guess the first question I have for you is you've now written, we made the John Grisham joke earlier. You've written many, many books. How did the process for this one differ from previous one?

Michael Horn:

I, I will answer the question, but I want to hear your thoughts as we go through this as well, Jeff. Because you know, you, you, you've, you've written some pretty big best selling books. So I'm still learning from you on a lot of this. The process on this one was different from anything I've else I've ever done. Not because I haven't worked with two other co authors before. My first book was with two other co authors. But I would say so I'll just give folks a little bio on my co authors. Bob Moesta is the co founder with Clay Christensen or co creator I guess, of the Jobs To Be Done theory. He's built literally over 3,500 products and services, everything from Patriot missile defense systems in the late 80s, early 90s to products in education and healthcare and even you know, the fuel on your fuel gauge, Jeff, when you're driving the arrow that says which side the tank is on. That was, that was Bob.

Jeff Selingo:

That was.

Michael Horn:

Yeah. So, so he's done like a lot of really interesting stuff and building but he's dyslexic he, like, writing is the last thing that he wants to do. It's really hard when email is a big part of my life as a result, to communicate. But that's something we have a lot of fun with. And then Ethan, of course, is a professor at the Harvard Business School, and he, along with Bob, originally came up with this idea in 2009 when Ethan saw Bob do one of these Jobs To Be Done interviews and was just like, it's sort of like a Chris Voss type interview. And he was just blown away by it and was like, wow, he just discovered why someone bought a certain product. I should be doing that with people who are looking for career advice to understand why they're switching. And he built an entire course around it at Harvard to explore this over the last decade, and he's had hundreds and hundreds of students from all walks of life. The reason I mention that is there was a lot of thinking and data already in the picture before I came into it. And then I started entering when we wrote Choosing College, and I started using the Jobs To Be Done. We discovered in Choosing College to make some career choices myself, which I talk about in the book. And then when Clay passed away In January of 2020, the three of us decided to write the book together. And Bob went deep on waves of new research and building processes to help people. And to be super honest, Jeff, like, I was on the sidelines kind of watching, but not doing a lot of the research at that stage and watching Ethan sort of absorb and play with it in his classes. And then we started to put together a pitch for the book with an agent I hadn't worked for with before, but she was terrific. And that's when I started to get super, super involved, Jeff, of really picking at the process and starting to think about what writing it would look like. And I led the writing process, and I made your short question much longer. But all I would say is then I really, you know, cranked through it, and my kids remarked, this is the fastest book you've ever written, dad. And I was like, thanks. Curse word enter here. It was sort of 15 years of work, but okay, thanks.

Jeff Selingo:

Well, if we were on Pivot, by the way, that curse word would have been a real.

Michael Horn:

Would have been okay.

Making the Time to Write

Jeff Selingo:

Okay, yeah, it would have been okay. But I don't think we have the E Explicit on our podcast, so that's probably a good thing. So you mentioned your kids. I. You know, I started writing books when my kids were, like, 2 or 3 years old. They're now teenagers, and I've come to realize, you know, in writing this fourth book recently, just how difficult it was as they got older, right? They just get busier. Our lives get busier. You also have other responsibilities. You're teaching at Harvard. Heck, we have this podcast that we didn't really have. I know when we both started writing books. So how did you and I, you know, this is a question I get all the time because usually it's professors or other journalists asking me about writing books. And they said, well, how can we do both? Right? So how did you do it all?

Michael Horn:

So I dedicate a full day a week when I take no meetings and I just write. Okay, Thursdays are my day. I don't like, I don't go to the gym that day. I try not to play tennis. I try not to take meetings. I try to not have a lot of kids stuff. I just write. And what I've learned about myself is that I write in super short burst. Something comes to me and I spit out like three paragraphs or a page, and then like, I have to walk around the block or stare at something, you know, a blank wall for an hour. And then all of a sudden it happens again. And so I need uninterrupted time when I can really focus on the task at hand. And I need to have been thinking the week before, like, what am I going to write with that time? So that it's sort of been gelling in my head, if you will. So that's number one. Number two, I ideally like to keep my mornings free for the same purpose. I'm pretty miserable at that. And so what I've really learned to do, Jeff, is my travel time on planes. I've become really good at writing super efficiently during those, those time chunks. I'll, like, have all the research material that I want to be distilling downloaded. So I'm not reliant on the WIFi. Although SpaceX or whatever it's called. Right. It's supposed to solve all that, but we'll see. But the I, you know, I. I have it all there so that I can really crank through. And then the last thing I would say on this book is, Ethan, Bob and I, we spent, I guess, three or four days together in Detroit really pounding through all the insights process. Where was the research? Pulling things together and then coming up with what we thought was the arc of the book, which is, I think, as you know, the table of contents always changes once you write your way through it. But at least it gave me a starting point from which to. To. To start plowing. And I. I do think I've become. Since kids, it's harder to find time, but I've become much more efficient at writing than I was before them.

Planner or Plunger?

Jeff Selingo:

Well, you're better than I am at that, I will tell you that. But one thing you did point out, I think is critically important that I want to emphasize, and that's just finding your rhythm, right? Nobody has a perfect rhythm, right. I couldn't do what you do, like just saying, okay, this is my day. But I also know that I'm a better writer in the morning than I'm at night. I love to get up early. You know, it's a great time to kind of ignore the news headlines and Twitter and social media and things like that, right? So, you know, being up at 5am is great for me. It gives me a head start on the day. It gets me up ahead of the kids. But I think whatever, you know, wherever you are, figure out what your routine is, figure out what your rhythm is, and then just lean into that, which is, I think, what you did, Michael. You know, I'm going to write about this on LinkedIn soon, about my process for research and writing. But, you know, there's this thing that Roy Peter Clark, who I first met at the Pointer Institute in Florida years ago, talked about journalists are either planners or they're plungers, right? They plunge right in or they really plan. Now, I will admit I'm a plunger, right? I plan a little bit. I do want to, you know, but I just want to get words on a page. I do minimal outlines. I have a basic roadmap, and I just write. Now, some people might say, oh, my God, that's crazy, because plungers probably waste a lot of time, which I will admit, I do. My writing process is not fun to watch, but I do like the result most of the time. So kind of curious about you. Are you more of a planner, more of a plunger?

Michael Horn:

I'm like you. Outlines make zero sense to me. Like when I was at the Christensen Institute, right? I would have. Because I managed then. And I would have people, you know, my research fellows would come to me with, like, detailed outlines of the white paper that they were about to write. And I would look at it and be like, I'm sure it's okay, but I won't know until I actually see the draft, because they literally make no sense to me. So what I do is, I think, similar to you, I hand write on a piece of paper a super high level arc of what I'm about to go do. And that's about it. And then I sort of figure out the logic as I'm actually writing. And I'm super willing to take whole paragraph sections and like move them wholesale right around as the argument comes together for me, Clay Christensen really talked a lot about structure when we work together, and I really learned to appreciate the importance of getting that right. But the only way I can figure it out is to actually figure out what I want to say in detail is what I found. Jeff. So it sounds like you.

Working with a Publisher

Jeff Selingo:

Yeah. So, Michael, this is a new publisher for you with HarperCollins. You know, one of the things I try to explain to new authors is just this idea of publishers, right. They're, they're different. Most of our listeners probably know the differences between commercial and academic publishing. But what's the one thing that you noticed about HarperCollins that might be different or surprising from other publishers you've dealt with?

Michael Horn:

Oh, wow, great question, Jeff, and I'll give you an answer in a second. But I will tell you, this is the number one thing I field calls about, about people who want to write a book is how to pick the publisher. And what's the process once you figure that out? Because it's like agent yes or no, self publishing, yes or no, academic trade, or you know, a place like Simon and Schuster where you are, or HarperCollins. Right. So this is my first experience with what's thought of as the big four publishers. And I will say there's a lot of expertise around storytelling market and support from the editor, at least for me, around not line editing, but more like, hey, your arc here works really well. The number of protagonists you have is overwhelming here. You need to get it down to, you know, one in this chapter and, and you know, or you know, you can have two in a chapter and one that carries through or you know, things like that. Right. I'm sort of making it up at the moment, but a lot of expertise, I think around that. And then it's been fun on the back half to see their team and get to interact individually with them as they're supporting. I will tell you we've brought on a marketing team and a PR team which has reduced some of the work that the publisher does as a result because we're putting our own money and time with other agencies on that. But that, and that so far we'll see once it's out if I how I feel. But so far it's felt like the right trade off and right experience.

Jeff Selingo:

Yeah. And I think that's really important to note that often you are going to have to spend some of your own money to kind of make this really work. You know, I've been with three publishers now, fourth book, second second book with Simon and Schuster, which will be coming out next year. And I put in a lot this time thinking about the structure and the editing and things like that in terms of getting help on that side. But I'm also now thinking about the help to get in launching the book. You know, you think, wow, there's these big publishers and they do a lot. It's not that they don't do a lot, but if you really want to kind of get the book out there and, and for the long term, you know, putting in a little bit more of your own effort or hiring people to help with that effort I think is critical. So just one, just, just stay on it.

Michael Horn:

One sec, Jeff. Just because I feel like that's something I learned from you, which is it's not like a commentary on your self worth if you have an editor alongside you to help you. Right. And so we have paid for that resource. PR and marketing. I've done PR before, I've never done marketing as well. Like these things that we've decided to make as an author team has been worth it. And you have the advance from these bigger publishers that make that a more palatable proposition.

The Hard Part that No One Talks About

Jeff Selingo:

Yeah. And on this book I've had both a book coach who just helped me kind of think about the book at an overall level and then I've had an editor sitting next to me because everyone needs a good editor even before they send their manuscript to an editor. And I think it just makes it stronger and probably helps on the back end too with that, with that editing. So one last question for you. What's the hardest part of book writing that rarely gets discussed, do you think?

Michael Horn:

Oh boy. I would say the stress of the different periods of time because there's a lot of like wait, wait, wait, and then hurry in the book writing. Right. So it's the. And you just went through it submitting your manuscript, where it's like the last few weeks of getting your manuscript together and submitting are incredibly stressful. They're like super. You feel the deadline looming over you. You're trying to pull everything together and then you take this big exhale and now you're going to get your copy edits back. You're going to get right like you're first. You're going to get overall impressions and copy edits and then first pass, second pass in between. Like there's these big lulls and then it's all of a sudden like, oh my God, go right two weeks and turn it around. And now I'm feeling it with the launch, which has just been like the last month of buildup. We've been texting, we're like, this is the last book both of us are writing. And I think you say that at every single one. Like you're going to have one or two more intervals where you say that I'm in that right now where I'm like, oh my God. And I've had two or three other people pitch me saying, like, we should co author this book afterwards. And I'm like, I have zero, maybe negative energy about thinking about that at the moment.

Jeff Selingo:

Yeah, I mean, I think probably it's like when you run a marathon or when women have a baby, right? They think, oh my God, never going to do it again. And then you do. Right. So I guess the same thing might happen to, to us. But I think the, the point you made, Michael, I think is really important, is that there's many turns at this thing. And you know, when I handed my manuscript in last week and everybody knew it was due around election day or two weeks ago now, and they said, oh, you're done? Like, no, I just. The real work is about to begin now. I mean, it's a huge hurdle when you hand that manuscript him. But you're, you're definitely not done.

Michael Horn:

Yeah, well, that was what Ethan said because he's, I hope this is okay. I say it. He's going through the 10 year process right now. He's literally up for it at the moment. And he was like, oh my God, if someone told me I was going to be doing both of these things, I don't know. But you're right, it's a lot of work over and over again. And the stress is real, I think, at every single time period.

Where to Find More on Job Moves

Jeff Selingo:

And speaking about the book and, and getting it out into the world, can you tell our listeners a little bit about where they can find the book, but also perhaps other places where they can interact with the book, other media or other events you might be doing?

Michael Horn:

Yeah, absolutely. So like I said earlier, jobmoves.com, that's where the book is. There's order forms there. But actually, maybe even cooler on the website, there's a lot of free resources. There's literally the assessment you can take about why you last changed jobs. We have a bunch of worksheets to help you through thinking through what drives your energy, how do you prototype, how do you make trade offs. But also, Jeff, my favorite, how do you ask for an introduction to someone outside of your network? Because people routinely mess that one up. So we have some really practical on the ground steps on those things in terms of interacting more deeply with us. Obviously there's the usual social media and stuff like that, but me and the co authors will be out at different events over the coming months speaking at a lot of the conferences. We're lining up a few big ones right now that you often are at and so really excited to be out there with people and frankly workshopping it. You know, last thing on this, which is like three quarters of the book is for individuals. The last quarter is for organizations, mentors and managers. If you're a college and university, I think it's a great book for your graduates, but I think it's also a great book for you so you can think about what's the human capital and talent on your team and how do you help them make progress so that you're really building for the long term. I think that's an incredibly important conversation that I'd love to learn from college and university leaders about as well.

Jeff Selingo:

Well, Michael, again, congratulations. As we've been talking about, this is like, you know, running a marathon and you're almost there, you're almost at the the finish line, but Job Moves: 9 Steps for Making Progress in Your Career with Michael Horn, Ethan Bernstein, Bob Moesta and again, congratulations. Get the book, everybody. We're going to be checking up on you and it's been great to have you on this episode of Future U. I guess I could say that because I was really the host this time. And we'll see you next time on Future U.